Sas/ regional jet och nordica
Hej! Den senaste tiden har jag flyget till hamburg med sas, Hur kommer det sig att sas har ett samarbete med Regional jet och nordica? Mvh Stina!
svar
Yes, I was intentionally provocative (sorry for that) in order to get more insight into the problem. I dont have friends or relatives in the aviation business, but am still interested in what is going on in aviation. And it was very boring during my vacation. Back to work on Monday. 2020 was the most successful in my field (apart from the travel ban) and the 2021 seems to come even better. Lets hope that the situation will improve also in aviation.
Happy new year!
Senator.
Sad that you don’t seam to understand english.
I was not ironic or sarcastic.
I was just thinking exactly the same as you, and we’re just adding some more facts.
Nope, Im not working at BT, but yes I am flying commercial.
It’s not the first time BT been getting governmental support, Im not sure that it will be a problem in the future with EU commission. To get approval of economic help during the pandemic you needed to apply to EU commission to get approval. If I remember correct, a governmental airline company are not able to get governmental support within 5 years or maybe its even longer if you already got economic support. But this was before the pandemic. During the pandemic EU commission been approving many companies economical governmental injections.
BT were applying very fast and got also a positive decision fast for an injection in the beginning of the summer
I was just also reading that now Xfly is owned 100% by Nordica and not co owned by LOT any more, if its good or bad Ive no idea about but I guess its positive if Nordica wanted to buy back Xfly.
OMG, ”Senator”, who here is bitter and poisonous? Have you read your own comments? What can I say, I’m actually sorry that all attempts to create an airline in Estonia has failed. EstonianAir, Nordic’s and now the leftovers called “Xfly”. The truth is there only room for one major airline in the Baltic states, and with all “feelings aside”, reality shows that airline is, and will be, airBaltic.
Spreading bitter non-facts and “make-believes” won’t change that.
BUT the good thing is that we don’t have to argue about this, we can just wait and see.
And BTW, comparisons with Norwegian is straight up ridiculous, and speaking of financial support from the government, we’re all very familiar with the history of EstonianAir and Nordica, aren’t we?
It is quite obvious that flygarn works in the BT. It is hard to justify to yourself that you work in a company that has never been financially viable and exists-expands only on taxpayers money. This is causing the anger and the tone of the comments. All the big plans can explode in a moment (in the best case like Norwegian from 140 aircraft to 6) if the taxpayers pull the plug. At least for now the Latvian taxpayers have been persistent. They have invested close to a billion euro (through tricks with RIX and other stuff) into BT with not much crying while Estonian taxpayers are crying for every million and therefore the Nordica/Xfly have got 5-10 times less money and could not have big dreams. And Estonian state budget is about 10% larger than the Latvian one. On the other hand politicians minds can change in a second. especially in the current Covid situation where other businesses need government help as well.
Range, absolut, du har rätt. Jag är anställd på BT, vilket också är anledningen till att jag vet hur det står till här och hur planerna ser ut. Och ja, om inte hela pandemin får en helt ny vändning gick vaccinet verkar vara verkningslöst (vilket förhoppningsvis INTE är fallet) och en gradvis återhämtning mot det normala börjar ske under vår och sommar, så sitter BT säkert.
@Senator
Från vad du skriver, så är det ganska uppenbart att du är anställd på BT. Det är helt okej och BT har säkert en lysande framtid med sina lån till den Lettiska staten, och kommer förhoppningsvis inte få EU på sig när det kommer till att staten investerat alldeles för mycket.
Your arguments are mostly wishful thinking. NordicaXfly (EstonianAir) has been s standing with the pants down mire times than I can remember. I don’t share your view on that “capacity providers” will have a bright future once the pandemic is in recession. Maybe later down the line, but no one knows.
And please name ANY capacity provider who made any profits on flying regional flights for SAS?
Climber? FlyBee? Cityjet? No, didn’t think so.
I’m pretty sure that in a year from now when we’re summarising 2021 , we will still have Xfly as a struggling capacity provider hopefully making “a small profit” from the crumbs falling down from SAS dinner table, and most likely airBaltic back on track racing with their A223-fleet towards the already set goals including being main dominating carrier out of ALL three Baltic states. Most probably with good help from the SK-codesharing.
@ Senator.
I think you are right. Its 2 completely different strategy and Xfly witch have 0 commercial risk.
Xfly have also been able to slim the organization more than 50%, and people went to temporary loose their salary with up to 60% so as many could keep their job. (No union or negotiations, 99% of the employees were agree to help each other to keep their job, thats amazing)
The CRJ 700 will fly or been flown for scrap/part out and same with the older CRJ900. And the E-jet that company took delivery of is also gone and does not make a negative balance in the sheat.
If the vaccine phase will go good, capacity providers will have a bright future. It’s cheaper to start up with an ACMI than produce the flight with an B73 or A32 until the load factor rise.
EE/Xfly is a marginal company with small regional aircrafts and no routes of their own. BT is a national airline with its own network, 25x A220-300 and another 25 on order and a further 30 on option. BT also has its own training center including a A220 FFS.
There is no comparison between the two.
Flag carrier with network“ is just a poetic phrase that SAS or other companies, looking for subcontractors, don’t care about. And many flag carriers are just with 1-4 planes.
First of all “Flag carrier” is rather a competitor not a subcontractor (=bad). Secondly, subcontractor financial situation is important.
Lets make a calculation then. EE and BT have the same number of parked aircraft at the moment. BT ones are larger and newer i.e. the BT losses are much bigger. BT has more aircraft flying. They can break even if the load factor is around 60-70%. Currently it is probably similar to SAS i.e. 25%. Meaning that each aircraft is making large losses and the more aircraft flying means greater losses. Xfly has a completely different strategy – providing service. For them it does not matter whether the load factor is 0% or 100%. They get a small profit from every flight anyway. So, the more planes they get in the air the better. If everything will get fine with vaccine, then BT may break even in August-September, but will make huge losses in all other months. So, their next year losses will probably be around 200 million euros next year instead of 300 million this year. If they are very lucky, then the loss will be 100 million. Xfly can break even by getting rid of all unused planes. However, if they get 1-2 more customers, besides SAS, then they will have to get even more plains than now. According to different news the negotiations are going on with companies and local authorities in Finland, Germany, Austria, Italy, Norway and Vietnam. There are also several countries (Lithuania, Slovenia, Montenegro, …) who want to re-establish their flag carriers. Using the Xfly, like Nordica used Adria, would be the fastest and easiest way for everybody. Thus, Xfly can be profitable with no extra contracts next year, but it is more likely that it will actually grow. Nordica boss told that the 30 million they got for the whole NAG group is sufficient for the foreseeable future while BT boss told that the 250 million they got this year is not sufficient even for now. So, the financial perspectives for EE and BT are quite different.
And personal relationships are also important. You cannot forget who worked with whom in not so distant past. Xfly has also better perspectives from this point of view.
Air batlic har 25st A220.
Xfly har 18 flyg. (7st ATR och 11st CRJ)
A couple of weeks ago both EE and BT had 22-23 machines. BT got two more EE retired some. Now there is a few machine difference. EE will have 20 million euro loss this year. BT will have over 300 million euros. So, it will depend on taxpayers can they keep the BT flying with such losses.
All due respect but I think you’ve misunderstood a few fundamental things.
– BT and Xfly are not companies of the “same size” .
– BT is a national flag carrier airline with a network, Xfly is just a capacity provider in the local/regional sector.
– Financially, BT is much more stabile than Xfly.
– E190-195 is a regional jet and not considered “mid size” . A220, A319/320 and B373 are midsize hets.
Let’s just wait 6-12 months and we’ll see who’ll be standing up and who’s still struggling to survive.
Probably a no-brainier to guess…
I am not in the industry, but it was obvious before Covid that Xfly will fly the mid-size production (E195???) for SAS since S2022. If I would be SAS I would do this from S2021 as this is the right size also next year when A320 will be far to large in most routes.
BT and the Xfly are the same size, but BT situation is more severe. 200 million euro loan last year, selling most of A220 (and leasing back), 250 million euro loan this year. Official loss in the first six months was more than 1 million euro per day. So, the total 2020 loss forecasted by Gauss (280 million euro) is very optimistic. BT has newer planes though if the can keep them flying.
SV: Sv Sv Sv
Avtal är kniviga att skriva. Bra avtal är ännu svårare. Men det var inte så mycket om detta min text ville förmedla. Sen kan man så klart fundera på vad du menar med ett bra avtal. Kanske anser du att ett bra avtal är när arbetsgivaren är villig att signera utan större eftertänksamhet (vilket kan ske när endast ett intresse bevakas, nämligen arbetsgivarens)
Det kvarstår som tämligen klart att vissa på det här forumet inte har så god insikt i vad som behövs för att bevaka proffesionella piloters intressen på BÅDE kort och lite längre sikt. Definitivt räcker det inte med ”ett avtal”.
Man är ganska imbecill om man lever i en värld där man tror att det endast är ett fack som kan skriva bra avtal.
Att upprepar en lögn eller löngner, innebär inte att den blir sann…
Sv Arbetslös.
Jisses, har du varit yrkespilot i trettio år och samtidigt inte förstått vad SPF arbetar för? SPFs mål, över tid, är rimliga arbetsvillkor för piloter och arbetsgivare som följer lagar och riktlinjer. Tyvärr inte alltid så lätt i dagens flygbransch som diskussionen i tråden är ett exempel på.
Jag gissar att du kan vara en av dem som hoppade på det “gula tåget” i förhandlingarna med PAS/X-fly som förkastligt nog initierades parallellt under pågående förhandlingar med SPF och inte vågar blotta det. Du kanske t.o.m. är en av dem återanställdes på någon annans bekostnad. Det känns ledsamt att skriva det, men det är sådant oförstånd som du besitter som på sikt slår sönder förutsättningarna för sunda och vettiga arbetsvillkor för alla de som vet att sådana detaljer är viktiga för en fungerande och human flygarbetsmarknad som i sin tur stödjer ett säkert flygande.
Jisses, har du varit yrkespilot i trettio år och samtidigt inte förstått vad SPF arbetar för? SPFs mål, över tid, är rimliga arbetsvillkor för piloter och arbetsgivare som följer lagar och riktlinjer. Tyvärr inte alltid så lätt i dagens flygbransch som diskussionen i tråden är ett exempel på.
Jag gissar att du kan vara en av dem som hoppade på det “gula tåget” i förhandlingarna med PAS/X-fly som förkastligt nog initierades parallellt under pågående förhandlingar med SPF och inte vågar blotta det. Du kanske t.o.m. är en av dem återanställdes på någon annans bekostnad. Det känns ledsamt att skriva det, men det är sådant oförstånd som du besitter som på sikt slår sönder förutsättningarna för sunda och vettiga arbetsvillkor för alla de som vet att sådana detaljer är viktiga för en fungerande flygarbetsmarknad som i sin tur stödjer ett säkert flygande.
@Sv Arbetslös
Du har skrivit samma kommentar flera gånger. Är du en av de som sitter med i SPF och inte gör ditt jobb? Då förstår jag att du försvarar dig, för det är nog fler som tycker ni som sitter just nu gör ett dåligt jobb än tvärtom.
SPF är för medlemmarna, det är helt korrekt. De gör tyvärr inte det som de ska för den summa pengar vi betalar varje månad. Så är det och jag tror merparten av SPF medlemmar håller med.
